Ep 154: Importance of Individuality: Learning to Trust Your Child’s Decisions (Fathers Day 2023) ft Ashwin Goutham Gopi, Corey Gumbs, & Nabeel Ebeid

Raphael Harry [00:00:00]:

Welcome to White Label American Podcast. This is a podcast that brings you bold in depth interviews with interesting people who are mostly immigrants taking down artificial walls one story at a time. This is a podcast that empowers immigrants to share their stories and listen to those of others. Thank you for joining us.

Corey Gumbs [00:00:24]:

You welcome.

Raphael Harry [00:00:47]:

To another episode of White Label American. Thank you all for joining us today. The journey of many immigrants includes the transformative experience of becoming a parent and embarking on a new chapter in their relationship. And that means becoming fathers for some. So this is the Father's Day episode. Happy Father's Day to the dads listening or to the dad's brand new dads or dads about. To those who are about to be dads. I'm not going to say happy Father's Day to the single moms out there. You're still part of Happy Mother's Day. We made an episode for you, but if you have any complaints, buy my merch and set it on fire. I appreciate that too. Thank you. If you want to learn how to support the show, go to the show notes and do that. I'm your host, Raphael Harry and I'm here as always, and I'm glad that you joined us today. We are on a Father's Day episode and I'm glad to have a few friends of the podcast with me. In the studio, we have our in house. I was about to use the intro for The Last of US, but I don't think other people will get it, so I want to use that. But we have our main stay on the podcast, Ashwin Gopi Gopi.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:02:12]:

What's up?

Raphael Harry [00:02:12]:

How are you doing today?

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:02:13]:

Doing great.

Raphael Harry [00:02:14]:

And founder of the Black Podcasters Association, Corey Gums.

Corey Gumbs [00:02:19]:

Thank you for having me.

Raphael Harry [00:02:21]:

And first timer on the podcast, Nabil EBIT.

Nabeel Ebeid [00:02:26]:

Great to be here.

Raphael Harry [00:02:27]:

Thank you for joining us. And we also have good friend of the podcast behind the Scenes, making us look extra beautiful with more videos and clips. Zoo Diallo. How are you doing, brother? You can shout out from behind the scenes. Yeah, that's what's up. That's what's up. So let's not waste your time. Let's dive straight in. We have that so we don't have to do any makeup or all that kind of stuff. We save that for the beautiful women. Do the patriotical thing. Keep these dads, keep them on their toes, hits them hard. So welcome to the show. Glad you all joined us today. So you all are different journeys of your different points of being into fatherhood and I appreciate you all willing to share and talk about that. And I have a few questions that come from friends of the podcast who are also podcasters. Well, one of them is a podcaster, so I will start with her question. So Beatrice, the host of In Between ish podcast. She wants to know how has your cultural upbringing influenced your view on fatherhood? Whether that means choosing to have children or deciding to parent them. Who would like to go first?

Corey Gumbs [00:03:53]:

All of us jump out. I guess I'll start. I'm not an immigrant, so I'm born here in New York, and I grew up in the my father wasn't in my life like that. So I think for me, it was a different experience. It was a choice that I made, that I was going to break that cycle. I wasn't going to be like him, which wasn't easy because it was a struggle. But I always knew growing up without my father, I mean, I had positive male figures in my life, but not having my father in a daily basis, and he was around on the phone, he lived in Puerto Rico, but it was a lot of broken promises and stuff. So I always made sure that for me, I wasn't going to do that to my son, to my children. So my oldest, who I raised from two years old to 14, he got that part of me versus my other two children because I didn't raise them with him. And they came, like, later in life. But culturally, I think from seeing my friends and myself and just what the things we went through without the male guidance, getting caught up in some street stuff and fights and doing all kind of reckless behavior from like 13 to 20, I think that played a big role. So when my son was around those ages, I was able to talk to him and be like, listen, man, I did this, I did that. You see the struggles I've had because of certain decisions I made in life. Don't repeat it. I always tell him, like, listen, don't you ever come out your mouth and say that your father wasn't around because I raised you. So you don't have that excuse to fall back on. But just culturally, I think the beautiful part is we typically hit a stereotype of black fathers not being around, which is complete fallacy. But it was amazing to see all my friends who were all in the same situation, where either we didn't have a father and our fathers just decided not to be a part of our lives, or they just no longer around. Even today, when I look at all of us, we all at some point in our lives, made a decision that we were not going to be like our father. So it's like all my friends in their kids lives and they're productive, and I see how wonderful their kids are. So I'm just happy like my son. Both my sons really didn't do the things that I went through. So that was it for me.

Raphael Harry [00:06:28]:

So who goes next?

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:06:31]:

I can go next.

Raphael Harry [00:06:32]:

All right.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:06:32]:

Yeah. So in terms of culture, right? I mean, in culture, you gain all this aesthetic stuff, the external, the way things are, the way things look in the way you have to act, and then you also inherit a lot of values. Values are things that you learn from explicitly being told. Things like whether you're punished or rewarded for something. Like you start learning, you get socialized into behavior. So that's one part of it. But on the third level, there are, like, deeply held assumptions. Those are the unspoken things that shape you, things that you learn through observation, things that you tacitly, you observe, and then you adapt and you imitate and things like that. So I mean, I mean, I'm sure there is, like, a lot that I've inherited in that way from being raised by my father. And sometimes I do have to catch myself in not becoming, as you said, too much like him, in the sense that I'm quick to anger. And then I think about the cultural differences. Then I think about, like, I had to grow up in a very, like like in a stressful environment, right? Like India is like, you know, growing up there, even though that it was in the middle class and we didn't have to face that kind of material threat. There is always that social pressure to like or you need to behave this one particular path that is predestined for you and that is literally in your stars and it is written in your name, and there is a chart which we follow. Then it will tell you exactly what to do on a day to day basis, your life is predetermined. And then me being very rebellious and then having to struggle in order to kind of be myself versus with my son, I allow him to do self discovery. I always tell him, listen, I don't know what's right or wrong. Let's figure, let's do this and see what happens. And I think sometimes you just have to invert those cultural values in order to let him experience that without any of the stress. Why do we have to even with education system and things like that, why do we have to include stress as the part of or even, like, rewards and even rewards? I don't reward myself. I mean, this may be controversial. I don't reward him that much. It's not like that. It's more like I let him find out what is rewarding for him, and that's the reward, you know, whatever he gets to do and as long as he does it well. Eddie's proud of, like, things. He builds like a little tower, and then he does a little dance. But it's good because I would never dance. You see what I'm saying? I would never dance. I would build it, and then I would be like, okay, very good analysis. Move to the next one. I wouldn't express joy physically like that because why? Because you have to act a particular way and so removing the boundaries. But I do give him, like, culture too. Like for an Ivy, I took him to I took him to India. I took him to his ancestors temple. It's not even mine. It's his ancestors temple, like the original stone, where they pulled it out of the river and put it there, like, 600 years ago and started praying to it. I took him there and let him see, and he has great, almost idytic memory. He will, I'm sure, remember all those things, but it's like, hey, it's there if you want it.

Raphael Harry [00:10:37]:

Okay.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:10:37]:

Yeah.

Corey Gumbs [00:10:40]:

Can I ask something real quick? Because you said something about culture, right. And I had the responsibility of basically with my children creating a new culture because I didn't have that influence. My grandfather was the closest thing to that, and he passed away when I was 13. So it was like, going through those growing pains and figuring out what I want my sons or my children to go, what I don't want them to go through, what I want them to go through. So it's like now I'm thinking about it. When you mentioned, I was like, man, I had the responsibility of creating a whole new culture in my family for my children, so talk about pressure.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:11:19]:

Yeah.

Nabeel Ebeid [00:11:25]:

My dad wasn't around for a lot of my upbringing either. I last saw him at 14. Things were on and off before then, and then after that, I saw him, like, three times again in his life before he passed away. And I felt that loss a lot. And I've known I wanted to be a father in that absence, in that loss. So when I was a kid, I would see fathers and sons together, and I wanted to experience that part of the relationship, or I want to experience that relationship from the other side if I didn't get the chance to experience it as a kid. But I'm realizing now that that meant I had a blank canvas. So I can pick and choose my influences. I can think about what I liked growing up, what I didn't like growing up, what I observed around me. And I also I'm not an immigrant myself. I'm the child of two immigrants. And I feel like I have the luxury, the privilege of being able to impart the culture or whatever amalgam of cultures that I want, and I kind of can pick and choose what I think resonates. And one thing that I realized a few months ago is I speak to my son basically exclusively in Arabic, and he's bilingual. He speaks both pretty much equally. And I realized that he doesn't even know that Arabic is, like, something that isn't native to Brooklyn, right. Like he's just like, yeah, I live in Brooklyn. There's people that speak Spanish, there's people that speak Chinese, there's people that speak Korean, there's people that speak Arabic. And if he saw somebody walking down the street who, I don't know, spoke Spanish and celebrated diwali, and he'd just be like, oh, yeah, cool. And that's like the otherness that I felt growing up as the child of immigrants, the like us versus them. The outsiderness that I felt just it's not a thing he has, but at the same time, he can, without the stigma, inherit the language and inherit cultural aspects. We stop by a grocery store, an Arabic grocery store on Atlantic, and I read to him that this is the Arabic grocery store in Arabic. It's written in Arabic. And he was like, oh, what's that mean? And I was like, well, if you go inside, amo uncle speaks to you in Arabic because, like, the concept that there's foods that come from somewhere else that is associated with this language, that would not compute. So yeah, it's different upbringing from mine, but one that I feel like I've gotten to be able to dream up myself.

Raphael Harry [00:14:47]:

Awesome. So still staying with relatively to that same question, but yeah, this next question will tie into that. What aspects of your cultural background do you intend to pass down to your children and what traditions or beliefs do you hope they will outgrow or reject?

Nabeel Ebeid [00:15:13]:

I'll take that since it's right on topic. So it's funny because I am progressive child of New York, and it's even little things like he speaks perfect Arabic. When we were growing up, everybody was amor Khali uncle or aunt. We are in a gender fluid, non binary world and he does not speak a gender fluid, non binary language. And you kind of have to figure out how to teach concepts like gender, maybe in a more open, accepting way. There are things about my upbringing that I think were kind of stereotypically immigrant. There was corporal punishment. There was particularly for my dad. Ashwin, to your point, I don't believe in punishing or rewarding. I try not to, but I think that rewards should be intrinsic. People should want to do a thing for the thing's sake. And there's a lot that and it's not just cultural. I think it's just the time, too. There have been a lot of people who've had the opportunity to study, think about how things like rewards work. And that's something that I've internalized again, raising my kids. I have a one year old daughter, too, raising my kids quite a bit differently from the way I was raised, but trying to stay true to the things that I think have made me who I am and are. Part of their cultural heritage that I don't want to throw away and that I want to adapt in a way that makes sense to me.

Raphael Harry [00:17:18]:

All right.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:17:20]:

For me, too, it's about picking and choosing. I tell them all the stories. I tell them all the stories. I'm talking like I'll mix, like, the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, with Middle Eastern, Native American, with whatever, with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, all the different stories that I know.

Raphael Harry [00:17:50]:

All the stories, man.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:17:51]:

Right. And you just have to tell them stories. So I do tell them. That part of the culture. I try to pass it down. I pass down all the stories. There are a lot of metaphors and stuff like that, including for me, my influences. Hindu, Catholic, islam. Buddhism. Those are the things that I know. So I try to tell him a lot of stories. I always try to make him the protagonist of these stories. And it's always like, it works out well in that way.

Raphael Harry [00:18:27]:

I try that.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:18:28]:

Yeah, I can pass down a lot of in that kind of cultural richness, but I don't really like it's also, because I don't know very well that all the superstitious part of it. Unless it's very convenient for me, I'm like, no, now, according to the I'll invent, like, the Gin, whenever I have to conjure one, I'll be like, actually, now according to the ritualistic time, it's time to sleep, and stuff like that, I guess, in that way, because that's also what my dad used to do. He was not very religious, I guess, so I never learned that part of it.

Raphael Harry [00:19:13]:

Okay.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:19:14]:

But I guess it's about yeah. I would like to like him to know that there are different stories that are possible, because, strangely, ask the question about how do you teach how kids to be, like, gender fluid and stuff? A lot of Native American mythology, African mythology, Hindu mythology, Greek mythology, deals with that kind of like gender bending. He was a man and a woman, and then he was half. He was split in half. And then one side of him was man, one side of him was a goddess, stuff like that, those kind of concepts.

Nabeel Ebeid [00:19:52]:

And there are a lot of non white, non European, non binary traditions. Like, third genders exist in a lot of cultures traditionally.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:20:01]:

And then there's two spirit people, native American culture and so on. So I think, yeah, it's about drawing, just, like to show that there is so many different possibilities. It's not just marvel.

Raphael Harry [00:20:21]:

I go ahead.

Corey Gumbs [00:20:24]:

Those are the only stories that count.

Nabeel Ebeid [00:20:28]:

Well, that's because you haven't heard the one about Jesus, the Buddha and Splinter walking into yeah, exactly.

Raphael Harry [00:20:34]:

Somebody writes him. There you go. I knew it. But yeah, if you get mad, my Match stuff.

Corey Gumbs [00:20:46]:

You should just make that a shirt.

Raphael Harry [00:20:47]:

Buy the biggest T shirts if you want. Socks, too. We got socks. Set them on fire. If you want to shoot it, shoot it, too.

Corey Gumbs [00:20:57]:

I think for me, it's hard being black and Latin, Puerto Rican, not really being associated with my Puerto Rican side. There was always that I remember growing up, my identity would always go back and forth, be like, oh, I'm Puerto Rican. And as I got older and I started learning about history, I started being more comfortable, like, nah, we're all really one people, right? Like they say, it just depends on where you got stopped on the boat. The boat stopped first. Right? But my kids are also I was having a good time. So I have three different baby mamas. And like, my oldest, his mother is half American, black and half Nigerian. So helping him to understand that part of his history. My youngest son, he's half Jamaican, and then my daughter, she's half Panamanian. So it gets really complicated. And I think for me, the culture part is I can only go by me being a black man in America. I impart that part of them. But I come from a family of teachers, so I think the biggest cultural thing that happened for me was I was the black sheep. I was the one that revolted. I was the rebellious one. I didn't want to go to school. My sisters did everything they were supposed to do, and I always say I'm the smartest one. But just in part, in that part about the I still learned the lessons of importance of education. So all my kids, I impart that in my way. And like you, I let them just figure out their way with it because that's how I had to learn. But just now, one of my things that I think about consistently, especially since my father passed away and I went to Puerto Rico, I had to go bury him in Puerto Rico. That was the first time I connected with family members that saw me when I was an infant or saw me when I was a little kid. I don't remember some of them. My uncle, my father's brother, I didn't see him since I was like, eleven. So it was like and then being there for the two weeks I was there and just like, wow, this is like, I've like you, I've gone. I've seen them maybe three or four times in my adult life, and a lot of times I just want to take a vacation. I was like, oh, let's go to Puerto Rico, right? I got a place to stay. So it was like the concern now is like, how do I impart that side of their culture? That culture just so they know who my kids are, very comfortable who they are, but still, it's still a part of your history. My family on the gum side in Puerto Rico. They did a lot of things in the area. So it's like, you should know that part of your history. So I'm just right now, just struggling with trying to figure out how do I reconnect all of them to this thing that I'm learning myself? So it's like, you got the Caribbean culture, you got the American culture, and then you have the Latino culture, and it's just trying to figure out how to manage that. And they figure it out for themselves, too. So I don't put too much pressure. I just like to remind them, hey, you know, this is part of your roots. You should, you know, here's a book, or here's something you should read and learn about it. But again, like, earlier, we had an opportunity to create our own clean slate and say, okay, this is what we're going to impart in our children from now on. And I look at it as a positive thing. Like, we got a chance to break a cycle that we could have chosen to actively continue if we stayed in that angry place or that place that a lot of people stay in. The Luke Skywalker. The Anakin Skywalker phase. Right. We could screw up the whole universe just because we got daddy and mommy issues.

Raphael Harry [00:24:34]:

I agree on that.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:24:35]:

I could pick some examples from the Old Testament for that.

Nabeel Ebeid [00:24:40]:

I feel that, though. So my dad was Egyptian, my mom is Syrian. The Arabic that my son speaks is Syrian Arabic, and he's eligible for Egyptian citizenship. I'm a dual citizen, and I've been meaning to work on his paperwork for that, but he actually doesn't even understand what his link to Egypt would be. He doesn't know that he has in theory or would have had a grandfather. Like, he's like his whole link to the place where he's eligible for citizenship, where I'm going to get his paperwork done is a story I'm going to have to tell him one day.

Corey Gumbs [00:25:23]:

Right? Yeah. For me, the guilt is my sisters are fluent in Spanish, and I'm not. That's because they went to class. I was too busy cutting up.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:25:34]:

I'm illiterate in my own mother, so.

Corey Gumbs [00:25:37]:

I would love for my kids to.

Raphael Harry [00:25:38]:

Get that part because you're not alone, but just for the listeners and out there. Corey mentioned not being from a family of teachers, and he's the black sheep. He still teaches, though.

Corey Gumbs [00:25:54]:

He teaches my own way.

Raphael Harry [00:25:56]:

Yeah. Before he came to the studios, he was teaching kids.

Corey Gumbs [00:26:01]:

It's funny how everything just comes full circle. I'll never teach kids.

Raphael Harry [00:26:04]:

Never teach kids. He was teaching some kids.

Corey Gumbs [00:26:06]:

I'm teaching kids how and then he.

Raphael Harry [00:26:07]:

Also teaches a lot of podcasters through the Black Podcaster Association. So he's teaching people out there. It's funny how it works. He might not be in a physical classroom all the time, but he's in a digital classroom a lot, so yeah, life comes with different cycles. It's like, me too. I come from a family of teachers, and I'm like, I don't consider myself.

Corey Gumbs [00:26:29]:

A teacher, but having a kid was you. All of a sudden, you become a teacher. All of a sudden you start realizing all these things your parents gave you. I'm like, oh, man, I'm my grandmother. I'm doing the same thing. My grandmother. I hear my kids talking, I'm yelling across the room like, that's how you know, you're correcting how they say a word or something.

Raphael Harry [00:26:48]:

It's like, you know, yeah, that's that was that was beautiful. Oh, you you said something abill about when you were talking about the dwarf citizenship. I don't know, something something crossed my mind about oh, I think I got the question. So when you take your kid late for his paperwork with Egyptian embassy. That won't be a problem. That his Arabic is Syrian, right?

Nabeel Ebeid [00:27:28]:

No, it's strictly your dad's Egyptian. You're Egyptian.

Raphael Harry [00:27:33]:

Okay.

Nabeel Ebeid [00:27:35]:

You can marry into a woman can marry a man into an Egyptian man into Egyptian citizenship. But even then, I think there's a residency requirement, but aside from that, it's just patrilineal.

Raphael Harry [00:27:49]:

Okay. Yeah. So similar to Nigeria, where a woman can marry into citizenship, but yeah, the other way around, it doesn't work.

Nabeel Ebeid [00:27:59]:

Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:28:00]:

Yeah. There's still some fight about that, so yeah, that's funny.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:28:05]:

In India, it couldn't be either. But you cannot be dual citizen, okay?

Raphael Harry [00:28:10]:

You can be dual.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:28:12]:

No, you do get like this special thing called an overseas citizen of India, but it's a meaningless document. Yeah, it's just that oh, you don't need a visa. You don't need to pay like, $25 every time you need to go. That's about it. You still have to wait in the foreigners line.

Corey Gumbs [00:28:33]:

Ceremonial, but I got this.

Raphael Harry [00:28:38]:

Go with them. They won't be more mean to you.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:28:44]:

It's like wherever in the world I go, I have to stand in the stupid line in the long line.

Corey Gumbs [00:28:52]:

It's funny, my uncle was telling me a couple of years ago, he was telling us because actually my name is supposed to be Corey Gum Solano. But my father, being the rebel he was, he dropped the Solano part. But my uncle was telling me that he was saying he's looking into it, but we should start looking into Spanish citizenship because he was able to trace our family name all the way back to Spain, to a royal house in Spain. So I was like, well, I might have to take advantage of that royal house.

Raphael Harry [00:29:20]:

Yeah, supposedly I told him he's got.

Corey Gumbs [00:29:23]:

To send me the information. I got to do my own research.

Raphael Harry [00:29:24]:

I come with gold. I could change my name. Solano, too.

Corey Gumbs [00:29:31]:

Lord Corey.

Raphael Harry [00:29:32]:

Claim me out. Your cousin spain.

Corey Gumbs [00:29:34]:

Spain.

Raphael Harry [00:29:34]:

Might owe me some gold, too.

Corey Gumbs [00:29:36]:

Bend the knee, Raphael. Afros and audio. We're going to do my coronation. Oh, boy. There we go.

Raphael Harry [00:29:47]:

I have to call the Spanish consulate. Like the guy coming.

Corey Gumbs [00:29:52]:

Back.

Raphael Harry [00:29:55]:

So as a dad, what do you consider your biggest challenges to be? What has been your biggest challenges so far?

Corey Gumbs [00:30:04]:

Oh, for me, so my son is going to be 24 years old, my oldest as a dad, especially with him, because we just like the history that I have with him. In particular, with him coming to live with me at two years old and me raising him and the stuff me and his mother went through as he was growing up. I think originally for me, the hardest part was dealing with that I have a two year old. I have a three year old and find it. I always tell him because we talked about it when I apologized to him, because I was like, listen, I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have anybody teach me. I really didn't have a blueprint on how to do this. So I made a lot of mistakes. So I think for me, the hardest part sometimes is I don't know how old you children are, but it's going to happen when they hit 21, you can be like, he's a grown man. He's not a child anymore. And my mom, I'm going to be 46. My mom still be acting. She'd still invite introduce me to this my baby. And I'm just like, stop, right? And parents going to be a parent. But I think the hardest thing for me is when my son turned 21 was like, okay, he's his own person. He's a grown man, and we just had a reread and had a fight over something. But I'm like, you know what? It's your life. You got to live your life how you want to live your life. I told him, I'm still going to be your father, and I'm still going to be concerned, and I want to make sure you do the right thing. But letting go and being like, you're grown man now. You got to go in the world and do what you got to do which is best for you. Not what think or your mom thinks, but what is best for you. And it's hard, but I guess the other two that are coming up behind him will get the easier part because I've been through it, so I know kind of the behavior. I kind of know how the conversation is going to go if I'm like, hey. But I think for me, that was the hardest part was just reckoning even as kids, recognizing that each one of them you try to put yourself, like, my oldest is probably more like me with music and TV and my influence because he was always around me. So I had him to watch a Star Wars, like seven, right? He's into all of that stuff. But I think the hardest part also is, like, recognizing if you have multiple children, that they're all individuals. And no matter how much you want to make your mistakes through them or repair the mistakes you did and make sure that they go on the right path, you still have to respect the fact that they're individuals, they have personalities, they have different perspectives, they have different experiences. So my son knows what it's like to have a father in his life. I don't. So he has a whole different perspective and experience that I can't relate to, and I just have to respect his feelings on that. So I think that it's hard to be self aware when you're emotionally involved in your knee deep I had to check myself at his graduation. All his teachers are like, oh, this is your mom, it's your mom. And I'm sitting here like, what am I, chopped liver? I'm not a part of if I didn't even find. A school, you wouldn't even be here. What, do I get my due? And it's just like, you know what? This is his time. I'll address you. Me and you will go have a beer, and we'll address that. But this is your time now. Enjoy it. I'm proud of you. So you got to learn how to remove yourself from and just recognize that this is a person, this is an individual. They have personalities. Sometimes they're characters. But you got to just remove yourself and let them trust that you gave them enough positive influence that they're going to make the right decision. And for me, it was when I was talking to my son, he got his first job, and he was like, yeah, I got X amount of dollars saved up. I'm investing, and I did this and did that, and I was like, oh, so you were listening, because I didn't have anybody teach me that stuff. So when he saw me working on my businesses, and I always impart stuff on him, and he act like he wasn't paying attention, I was like, So you were. So that's when I learned to just take a step back and be like, okay, he's fine. He's not out here. He's not popping out babies. I called him on his 23rd birthday. I said, Listen, he turned 22. I said, Yo, when I was 22, you were on the way. You're one step better than where I'm at, so continue on this path. I was, like, telling him, like, you weren't out here in the streets. You weren't out here running around acting a fool. You wasn't doing your schoolwork, but you wasn't out here doing getting trouble. You was drawing right. You wasn't playing your video games with your friends and stuff. And I've had to tell his mom, ease up, he's fine. He doesn't have a criminal record. He's not out here being reckless. He's being responsible. He has a job. He's getting his money. He's going to school. Leave him alone. It's hard.

Raphael Harry [00:34:55]:

That's why you're here, because most of us, we're still far behind you on the journey.

Nabeel Ebeid [00:35:02]:

Yeah, that's it. We've got young kid problems.

Raphael Harry [00:35:10]:

Yeah. So what has been your biggest challenge challenges so far?

Nabeel Ebeid [00:35:21]:

There's the tactical stuff, like sleep, and my kids just have so much energy. They're one and four and, you know, fun. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. And, you know, my day starts at 630 if I'm lucky, 05:00 if I'm not. And then my oldest doesn't go down till on a good day, 09:00. And if he's some nights he just want to party. So there's just such little time when there isn't that intensity in my life. But I'll say the biggest challenge for me is probably just looking ahead, knowing that it's not going to be this idyllic, this is hard. But also, I spent so much time with my son during the pandemic. That's why he's so fluent in Arabic. We took him out of daycare, and I was with him all the time, and he was on my work calls, and I don't know if it's going to be like that with my daughter. And I'm about to take my first work trip in a long time without him, without the family, in two weeks. And I'm just dreading it. I'm going to be gone for three days. But we've just gotten so close. That's just so I know that that's not normal. That's not like people have things and they leave. And I think the process of raising kids is just like the gradual loss of intimacy. You start, and they're on you all the time, and they are needy, and you're everything to them, and then they just drift away gradually, and at some point they start hating you, and they figure it out in therapy, and then you all be okay in the end. Right? But knowing that's why I'm glad you went first, because that's what we got to look forward to, right?

Corey Gumbs [00:37:30]:

I can tell you the experience between boys and a girl is completely different. So don't worry too much about your daughter. Be honest with you. They have their, like I don't know, like, when I had my daughter, it was just it was a weird experience because she was like my so she was like that for me. She was always with me. She's like my sidekick, so whenever you saw me, she was there with me. But our relationship, even though she lives in Virginia with her mom, we still have a relationship, and it's weird because she doesn't live for me anymore. So, you know, it's we still have, like, a bond. So, like, it's different. It's it's it's just interesting with the boys and the girls. So, like, I don't I don't I'm not concerned from her for her, like, I want my son. Like, yeah, what are you getting yourself into over there? She's just doing what she's supposed to be doing, and she's doing it well, and she has her personality, and I'm just like, okay, I just got to make sure when the boys start coming into the picture, we just have a clear understanding of where your life is going and what mistakes you don't need to make. Right. But enjoy it, man, because you're right. They start hitting, like, 1012 years old. You're like, you want to go hang out with him? But yeah, one of the hardest things for me was my son was with me all the time. And then when his mom it's a whole story with that, but when his mom started getting him on the weekends, I would take him to judo. She would pick him up from judo. There was that time period where I would drop him off. I would leave, and then I be like I'd sit in the car for, like, five minutes and be like, so what do I do with myself, right? And I think that helped me because then I started finding things like, oh, I'm going to go to the movies, I'm going to go do this, I'm.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:39:10]:

Going to do that.

Corey Gumbs [00:39:10]:

Stuff I didn't get a chance to do while he was living with me on the freedom to do it. But it's always that moment. You're like, what do I don't know what to do with myself. Because it's like your part of you is missing or part of you is gone and you're like, I'm so spent so much time and I'm so involved. So enjoy, because it's going to happen. Just hopefully the teenage angst part doesn't go it doesn't go, like, spike all the way up, you know, so but.

Raphael Harry [00:39:39]:

You should you'll be fine.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:39:42]:

Mike is young, too. Yeah, three and a half. And I get you, like, about the intensity. Sometimes it's so intense and he's very social and he wants to be around people, so I get it. And sometimes I'm like, boy, I need a break. I just need a little break. I want to be here. You can jump on me if you want, but I'm going to be here. I'm not getting up. You can jump on me right here. Okay? So I'm like, okay, fine. But then I'm like at the same time, I kind of get it. And I wish that my greatest challenge is I don't have anyone else to give him. It's just me or his mother, and it's the two of us all the time. He doesn't have a cousin, he doesn't have an aunt or a grandma, and everyone is a very expensive plane right away. Everyone is very far away and everyone is a visa away also, by the way, for him, right, it's like moments of short bursts of intense togetherness and then long times of just isolation for us away from our family. And that's what he misses. Sometimes. I take him to, like, I wish we could have come to your party too. He would have liked it. But we took him to another party, like last week, to a graduation party, and it was like, a lot of Indian people there and he was just like he thought, oh, this must be my cousins. And he was so happy.

Raphael Harry [00:41:26]:

They have to be cousins, man, that works.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:41:29]:

And he had such a good time, but I was like, oh, that's what he needs. And then I have my weird theory of how humanity will solve this in the future. I think due to economic and social conditions, we will move into trinary marriages because of real estate is so expensive, it's cheaper to get whatever, two bedroom. You will move these kind of trinary arrangements and it will be like we will create like a new kind of like a marriage unit composed of, like, three individuals, you know, and to for child rearing and for community. They say it takes a village, right?

Raphael Harry [00:42:22]:

It really does take a village. You already got a village right there.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:42:27]:

I'm just saying. That okay. By the way, I never broached this subject to my wife.

Raphael Harry [00:42:33]:

The views are not the views of.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:42:36]:

What are not even the views of Ashwin. They're not the views of Ashwin. Observation I am predicting that due to economic conditions in the future.

Raphael Harry [00:42:47]:

In the future. Right now. Future. But Mayor Adams, in case you're listening and you want to take the idea.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:42:54]:

Come talk to me first in case.

Raphael Harry [00:42:58]:

You need a TSA to implement this idea, because I know you love hiring Tsars 200K. So another topic staying with consents. We are in this age of cultural wars being waged by some people. How concerned are you with the culture was being waged on the political front and in the media? Do you have any plans for addressing that with the kids? I had an interview. I recorded a session earlier on and two immigrant parents, and they were honest about their kids, who they brought here to America, new York City, much younger, being so aware of the politics. The oldest is 17, and the youngest is about 13, I believe. Being so aware of politics, being into politics. And they grew up in Singapore, the parents, and their childhood wasn't anything like that. They weren't into the politics. Their childhood was not anything like that. So nowadays it's different for the children. And this culture, was that's in the news? It's everywhere.

Corey Gumbs [00:44:32]:

Yeah.

Raphael Harry [00:44:33]:

Are you concerned about that? And do you have any plans on addressing it? Should they come around, your kids? So let's start with the younger ones, and then we'll go to Corey.

Nabeel Ebeid [00:44:47]:

Yeah. We're actively in the process of applying for permanent residency in Canada. So there's that. We've been terrified of a number of things. This country's obsession with guns terrifies me. The idea of I mean, my child, he was three, doing lockdown drills. Like, lockdown drills. That's not normal. That terrifies me. His mom is black American. Their mom is and particularly with him, I don't know at what point he's going to start being seen as a threat. I do remember very vividly when Flat Bush looked like it was occupied by the NYPD, and that was some apocalyptic shit. And so I think when we talk about culture wars, it trivializes the actual real violence that it kind of feels like a euphemism. Right. And I don't know. God forbid they have to face issues of sexuality, and gender identity in a hostile country toward that. So, yeah, out of concern for safety, we have been thinking about more than thinking about. We've been actively applying for permanent residency in Canada. And we, if all goes well, are going to spend this next school year here, and then the following school year, we'll be in Toronto.

Raphael Harry [00:46:48]:

Okay, but in Toronto, let's say you moved there. Because I know of some of the politics over there, but I know it's not full-on crazy like here. So if some of the school craziness, someone starts moving because the political party is dead. Also have some of it's sipping over there too. So, like, some say, oh, there's too much. They're trying to paint their history. We don't like the way people are trying to force our history to look like we are bad guys. We don't want that. Want some books banned in the schools and all that starting to seep into Toronto because it's literally beginning to happen in different parts of the world. If there's one thing happening in America, you start seeing it happening around the world. Do you have any plans for dealing with that?

Nabeel Ebeid [00:47:52]:

We'll figure it out. I mean, it's scary everywhere, and I don't want to act brand new about this. I know that there have always been issues, and, you know, my parents, both immigrants, you know, they they left their countries for a reason. And I think if we'd be leaving from a much more privileged place than the one my parents left, so, you know, I think it is it's a privilege and a luxury to be able to think about where we want to live and have the options we have. Having these options, I think we're just going to have to see what Toronto is like. We don't have to renounce our citizenship, and we can always come back if we feel like this is the place to be. But I think right now, having that option and having, from what I can tell, sort of normal range of horrible to deal with, and just along I look at the stats, incarceration rates are much better. Life expectancies are higher. Gun violence is lower. I mean, a lot of the things that aren't directly related necessarily to what we're calling culture wars, but really reflect a politics that the same politics that that we're referring to when we're talking about these these culture wars. A lot of these things are just, you know, normal terrible and not terrifyingly terrible, as far as I can tell.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:49:48]:

All right, yeah, I get you. The gun stuff is very scary for me, and people are like, oh, but you live in Brooklyn, New York. You know, you should be safe. I don't feel safe, you know, and that's why I'm saying, you know, we should I get it. We should build a wall. We should keep these Long Islanders out of New York City. Keep the Long Islanders out. They're insane. Staten Island, I'm thinking I will myself.

Raphael Harry [00:50:23]:

Put, like, till you figure out what's.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:50:24]:

Going on down the verizon of Bridge.

Raphael Harry [00:50:26]:

Myself before you guys get mad. Locate Long Island match first, just until.

Nabeel Ebeid [00:50:34]:

We figure out what's going on.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:50:37]:

They are not sending their best, okay? They're sending their crazed, trained killers into our subways, okay? To attack and murder people. They're insane. They're traveling with guns. They come with pickup trucks. They come with rifles and handguns. They're insane. They come and then they're coming, like, pre mad. They're pre mad. They're mad even before they get they're angry before they get here. They watch all this Internet content, and they get really angry, and then they come here. I'm like, Dude, no. Go chill out.

Raphael Harry [00:51:21]:

Get mad there in Long Island.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:51:23]:

Do not come here if you think it's dangerous. Why is your instinct like, oh, I need to be Captain America. I got to load up, there's a truck with my guns, and then go to the place, which I believe is unsafe. It's kind of like it's almost like, pornographic for them, exposing themselves outward like this in public with their guns. I'm doing really it's really scary for me thinking of these Stash Islanders and Long Islanders coming to Brooklyn with their assumptions and weapons. I kind of get you. It's very scary. I think we don't need to and.

Nabeel Ebeid [00:52:02]:

Stereotypes aside, true as they might sometimes be, when we talk about Brooklyn being safe, which the city is much safer than it once was, but that's also before we've seen the effects of Nicerpa versus Bruin, the Supreme Court law. The idea, and I think this gets at the heart of just our ability to govern ourselves is under attack. And I think that we live under this illusion that if the roof is cratering in the room next door, it's not going to affect our room when we're all under the same roof.

Corey Gumbs [00:52:47]:

Here I have a different perspective on the culture because I grew up doing the crack era. So when I hear about the schools and stuff, I'm like, look, man, I mean, I've had friends. We had guns on us in school, but we didn't go there with the intention of it, it was whatever was going on after school. So the one thing that was amazing to me, and I saw it during the Pandemic with the whole Trump presidency and saw my sons with my oldest son and my youngest son with the schools that they go to. And I guess I could be naive. I have more of a positive view of it, of the culture war, because I've realized that I don't have a political voice anymore. I'm going to be 46 years old. This is my son's time. This is my children's time to take a stand for their future. I love history. So part of the problem we see with all of this stuff is the scorched earth that comes from their European roots. That's what I'm going to say if I can't have it. Nobody can constantly see through all the history books. That's what they did. So we just need to accept that part. And whenever there's a challenge to the power structure, this is not the place for this conversation. But I look at it like, okay, the one thing I saw during the Pandemic was and I think what was her name? Carrie Ann Conway. When her daughter was doing it, and it's always been the biggest fear of white America when segregation happened, which was your kids are now going to be influenced by the kids who you hate, the people children who you hate. So these kids are going to school with Latino children, they're going to school with African Americans, they're going to school with Asians. They're meeting these kids that they're now friends with. These are my friends. It has nothing to do with race. This is my friend and I'm not going to let you talk about my friend like that. Do you know what I'm saying? So I see these kids, the younger generation, and unfortunately, because even with the school shootings and stuff and seeing the organizations that came out of that by the people, the youth, this is their time. And I used to say that my family is also very community involved in politics. We used to have politicians at my house, my grandparents, we did a lot of stuff in Queens. And I remember I used to always be like, well, you guys are talking bad about the kids, but what are you giving us? So I always had that viewpoint like, you had your time, now it's our time. And it's just something the age-old story between we see it in all no matter what culture you come from, the conflict between the youth and the older people, right? But our children are a lot smarter than we were because of the Internet, because of tech. They get information faster so they can have their perspective form faster. They share information amongst each other. Like it's crazy, right? And if you're a parent paying attention to your children with this, you got to learn to take a step back. That's why I said I had to learn to realize my son is a person, his own perspectives, and he's an individual. And we don't always agree. I want my son to be tough. I want to play football. He wasn't a sports kid. It was very hard for me, like, dude, this makes you into a man. And I had to realize he's going to become a man in his own way, in his own form of fashion. So I encourage parents. If your kid doesn't have a view you agree with culturally, you need to sorry. Because all you're going to do is drive them away. So you got a decision to make. How much do you love your child and how much do you love your culture? If you love your culture more than your child, and I always take these positions, then you don't really love your child as much as you say you do. That's true because a lot of our cultures and traditions we want to hold on are coming from some archaic barbaric ways. If you really, really put no fist anybody with religious but if you really study what you're practicing, some of this stuff is like, that's my first tell me stuff and I'm like, did you not just read this over here? What just happened back then? No, you're justifying you can't tell me you love humanity and then you're justifying an act against humanity. So I was always with my oldest. When he turned 13, I gave him an autobiography. Malcolm next. I was like, you know what? I stumbled onto it because my grandparents had a library in their house, and I was just bored. One day I was like, oh, what's this? And I read it. So I was like, no, this is like the rites of passage. That's what I was saying before we did the interview. I was like, I send my kids books now. These are your presence. But I always encourage them to be politically involved of some sort. Being a black American and being my grandparents, being involved in civil rights. My grandmother, I was always like, I wish my grandmother got a chance to see her first black president because they fought so hard. But I also understood that they didn't fight hard for them. They fought hard for me to see it.

Raphael Harry [00:57:40]:

That's right.

Corey Gumbs [00:57:42]:

And I think culturally, in America, at least, we've lost that part where this is not about you, it's about your children. That's true. Even the gun violence and stuff. You want to talk about guns in schools and training, all of that stuff. I mean, like, literally on my block, I couldn't leave my block.

Nabeel Ebeid [00:58:03]:

It was a very different era in.

Corey Gumbs [00:58:04]:

The you know, in the 80s, late 80s, early 90s. You didn't get on certain trains because of that. So, like, I'm not I don't I don't want to say I don't walk scared, but I'm not scared because I grew up in New York where murders was 1200 a year. We're not even hitting like, 800, so we're hitting really no numbers. So it's like, when I hear my friends, I'm like, Come on, man, like, man up. Seriously. We used to go, like, certain neighborhoods you just didn't go into. So the culture wars thing, I like, certain things I don't agree with and certain things I have my issues with. But you know what? It's not for me. I got married, I have my kids. Why am I worried about who somebody sleeps with? It really doesn't affect me. If my son decides he wants to, that's the lifestyle he wants to live. Who am I to say anything? And we can't talk civil rights and we can't talk everybody can't throw the Constitution, say everybody has a right, and then you're denying people rights. Look, you want to identify whatever you want to identify with, that's fine. My thing is, just don't force me to. That's your right. I have a right to just be like, okay, whatever, but vice versa.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [00:59:19]:

Whatever.

Corey Gumbs [00:59:19]:

I feel, I don't have a right to push it on you. Just like, you so I think teaching the kids to find that balance and we see it it's amazing. I see the kids, I watch them on the streets, and I don't try not to judge them when I see them and listen to them, but I see like, in my neighborhood when I pass by the local high school, this Latino, this Asian, and there's black kids used to be predominantly black high school. And I'm seeing them interacting with each other, and I'm like, okay, this is cool. I was always the kid that was cool with everybody. So I was cool with the white kids, the Spanish kids, the Asian kids. So I always knew somebody. So whenever there was conflict, I was caught in the middle because I was like, chill, that's my man. Leave them alone. Like, nah. But I see the kids doing it on a daily basis, and for them, they're going to be protective of their friends. So you might as well just accept it because you're going to drive your kids away and you don't want to do that. That goes back to what you're saying. They go to that period where they hate you. Then they get older and be like, okay, I love you now. Because there has to be a reconciliation part from the conflict and views. So I just think the best thing is just to encourage the kids to if they want to participate in the culture, let them figure out what it means to them. I think it's important for you to know your roots. Growing up in black America, that's a big thing for us. It's like, who am I? Where do I come from? So much has been kept from you. Then when you get it, you go through the whole angry angry stage. And a lot of us don't leave that angry stage.

Nabeel Ebeid [01:00:51]:

The beautiful thing about New York these days is that you can be any kind of anything that you want to be. Like, you want to be, I don't know, a queer Puerto Rican skateboarder who listens to and reads manga, and there's probably a group of friends for you who do exactly that. I think a lot about how blessed we are, and how grateful I am that all kinds of people have their community online and offline these days. And that's something I think about when I think about where we're going to raise our kids it's important to me that they have the opportunity to be whatever version of themselves they want to be and find their people.

Corey Gumbs [01:01:36]:

The cool thing about that, though, is I think a lot of us older generations because we grew up in isolated, segregated viewpoints, right? The cool thing is you could be the LGBTQ, queer Puerto Rican skateboard that hangs out with the rapper the rapper friend that dresses like a gangster. I see them all conversing and hanging out in spots, and it's like, initially, it's like mind-boggling, the heck's going on here. But when you if you take time to sit and watch them and interact. You see that they're happy amongst each other, and they're very more accepting of each other than how we were. We would ostracize you if you said some crazy stuff. I'm still guilty of it. I'll be like, pause and all that stuff. But that's just a cultural thing. But I see with the kids, I'm just like, this is real. It's real interesting to me, especially if they're teenagers and young adults, they're going to push back against you because for them, this is important.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:02:36]:

Yeah, very good point. I mean, I wonder if my son's then going to grow up thinking he's Caribbean.

Corey Gumbs [01:02:45]:

We're part of Brooklyn. I don't know if he was growing up a flat bush.

Nabeel Ebeid [01:02:54]:

Look, he's not Hasidic right?

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:03:01]:

Every neighbor, teacher, nanny, everyone is Caribbean to the bone.

Corey Gumbs [01:03:10]:

But you got Indian roots with that, too.

Raphael Harry [01:03:14]:

At least he'll be better than what's Tom Hanks son's name. He'll be more authentic than Chad Hanks. So what's your favorite sports or hobby? And I know I already know part of this answer from one person already. And have you tried to push your child into it?

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:03:38]:

Never had to push him. He came running to it, which is music.

Raphael Harry [01:03:44]:

Is that the dad answer that you're going to give us?

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:03:46]:

No, he drew me into it more, I would say. When he was born, I used to play music for him, whatever music I was listening to and stuff like that. But two things he figured out. One, he figured out how to use YouTube when he was very young. He figured out only YouTube, and I let him. Okay. Because okay, here's the thing. I get it. You're not supposed to use technology and stuff like that, but I believe that we can look at technology, poetically, not always as exploitation. So I loved him. I controlled what kind of content he can see and stuff like that. But music, especially the YouTube music app, there are no videos, right? It's only purely audio. So I felt like it's not that addictive. But he became very good at figuring out and then slowly, by the time he was two years old, he started introducing music to me through either his algorithm or he'll select this music and he'll be vibing to it. And I'll be like, this song is actually very good. Like, genres I wouldn't even listen to.

Raphael Harry [01:05:01]:

He listens to names, like, two or three artists that he likes.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:05:05]:

I found out through him. Remy Wolf Magdalena Bay. It's another one. And the ginger root.

Raphael Harry [01:05:20]:

It's like a multi-instrument, literally. I agree.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:05:26]:

These are all like Ginz artists.

Raphael Harry [01:05:28]:

Yeah, that's really.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:05:31]:

I was like, Boy, look, this is Kendrick Lamar, okay? Pay attention to the entire damn album. He found the new Kendrick album. He really liked it. I listened to it once, and then I didn't listen to it again. But then he went back and he found certain songs, and I'm like, Actually. You know what? Let's give this album a second chance. Stuff like that. Okay? So in that way, music is one thing that really connects us.

Raphael Harry [01:05:54]:

I was right about training to the bone.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:05:59]:

He is weird. I tried to introduce him to Californian hip-hop. He does not like it. He only likes Shek West. He's like must be from the Bronx or from one of the five boroughs. He likes boosting clan boutangs for the kids. Yeah, exactly. He likes Shekwes. He likes only artists from here, but okay. He likes, like, Bobby Schmadter.

Raphael Harry [01:06:28]:

Bobby Schmader.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:06:30]:

Anyway, so that's one part of it. The second part of it is the acoustic guitar he figured out that if he comes and brings me the acoustic guitar, I'll play songs for him. And that like, I used to play a little bit, but then he's now really the one who keeps me practicing. Every day. He'll come dragging the guitar behind. I'll hear it hit the furniture and the wall as he brings it down the corridor. And he'll come dragging the acousticator behind him. And he'll be like, all right. And I have to play my entire repertoire of songs for him until he's happy and stuff like that. So now I'm like learning new songs because I am bored of playing the same five, six songs for him. But that's what I mean. He drives me to these hobbies. He's the one. He's a driving force, right? And I am there to support him. I introduced him to it. I give him all the tools. I put him in the car, sometimes, roll down the windows, and we are just, like, listening to music together. That's just why we're not even going anywhere. He just likes just chilling, and listening to music in different places. Sometimes he'll come to my office and he'll be like, no, let's play music here. He's really the one driving it.

Raphael Harry [01:08:01]:

All right. What about you?

Nabeel Ebeid [01:08:04]:

My son has a very limited range of interests. He loves to read. He's been reading for, like, about four or five months now. And it's every like you get him he has a big library. He'll read any and all books. He also likes, you get him a toy, he'll spend the first 20 minutes reading everything on the box. He likes music, like, the way kids generally like music. But I've often tried to get him interested in playing something or he's not there yet. Yeah, he loves trains and knows the subway system around us for backward. He tells me new ways to get to he's like, that sushi place we go to that we walk to. I'm like, yeah, what about it? He's like, well, why don't we just take the two three from school to Barclays Center, and then we can take the B over there. And I was like, yeah, I guess you can't go down.

Raphael Harry [01:09:23]:

I can testify.

Nabeel Ebeid [01:09:25]:

He'll tell you what stations are handicapped accessible.

Raphael Harry [01:09:29]:

He knows Brooklyn. Yeah, he knows more trains than I.

Nabeel Ebeid [01:09:32]:

Do, so love him. The subways.

Raphael Harry [01:09:37]:

So did that come from you, or did he just pick up those?

Nabeel Ebeid [01:09:41]:

He loves patterns and systems. He's much better at spatial reasoning than I am. I get lost everywhere. He knew from when he was a kid, like, how to get back home, how to he's just really good with directions. He likes how things fit together. So he's like, we live near Barclays Center, and that subway station is just so interconnected in their ins and outs and whatever. And so he's really interested in what trains stop where, and you've got to take the elevator if you're going to go there. I think he's just got a mind for systems.

Raphael Harry [01:10:21]:

Did you ever try to get him into your favorite spot, or support your favorite team?

Nabeel Ebeid [01:10:30]:

He has not been into sports yet. He has Hamas, Allah jersey, and we all do. His little sister has an old Muhammad the Egyptian team jersey, not his Liverpool. But, yeah, he's not that into sports. He gets bored really easily watching things on TV. So unless it's like Sesame Street or Blues Clues, he just loses interest real quick.

Corey Gumbs [01:11:07]:

So I got three of them. I think I traumatized my oldest because I played a lot of sports. I played baseball, softball, football, and flag football, and he would be at the games with me, especially when I played football. This is why I think I've traumatized him, because one time I got hurt, and he's on the sideline like this blood coming out and stuff, and I'm like, I'm good. I'm telling him, I'm fine. Don't worry about it. I'm good. But I tried to get him into football one time. I put some pads on him and, come on, let's go. And I hit him, and he was like, no, I don't think I want to do this anymore, but this is the most mistake I made. I tried to force him. He was really good at judo. He was really good at judo, but I think he didn't want to do it anymore. But I was like, I'm the type of father, like, you got to do it at least once. You can't tell me you don't know if you like it or not if you've never done it, so I'm not trying to hear you on that. So let's go try it. Let's see what happens. From my other two, I learned my lesson from that. It's like, Let me introduce you to things, and if you like it, or if I see you take an interest, then we'll support you. But my oldest, he got, like, the best of me. He was like, the music my family's musical as well. I try to do music. I was making beats and stuff, so he was around for a lot of that. So he was really into music. When he told me he liked Lincoln Park, I was like, finally. So I'm glad I got to take him to see the concert, one of the concerts before Chester Pass. It was like one of those Daddy moments. He's sitting there, he's singing all the songs. I'm like, okay. Instruments in my family have always been a thing. So I try to introduce my kids to the instruments, but they didn't really take to it. But I think because I exposed him to so many try to get him to do so many different things, it also helped him figure out what he wanted to do, which was art. And I didn't realize it was funny because I didn't know he was into art. It was like his little secret thing. And then one day he gives me a picture he drew of Goku. I said, Where'd you get this from? I saw it. I was like, Where did this come from? He was like, oh, I drew it. And I said, what do you do? Did you trace it? He was like, no, I drew it. So I was like, okay, do it again. And he did it. And I was like, oh. So I was like I said, Where did you learn how to do this? I think one of my sisters got him a book for Christmas, an art book, and that's where he taught himself art. So I was like, okay. My son is an artist. He didn't take to the music part. The creative side runs through my family. So it's like, this is his lane, so I leave him alone. My youngest son plays basketball now. He's the one who took to the sports without any influence from me. One day they moved to Florida, and one day he's like, he wants to play football. I guess he realized football wasn't for him. But he's tall, so he got into basketball. So that's his thing. It's crazy because he looks like Steph Curry, so everybody's like, he's always Steph Curry. So he's trying to be him. Now, my daughter's into science and math, so I encourage that, which I'm so happy about. So I'm going to force her into coding.

Raphael Harry [01:14:16]:

But I think she'll do well with it.

Corey Gumbs [01:14:18]:

I think she'll do well again. I don't want to say I force them, but I try to really try this for a little while. See, if you don't like it, then we'll stop. Because that was one of the mistakes, I think. My mom she did that with me and my sister, she would expose it. But I think one of the mistakes my mom made with me in particular was when things got a little rough, she was like, all right, you don't have to do it anymore. And it took me a long time through my adult life to be like, I never finished what I started because of that. I think some of it's just a personality. Like, if I lose interest, I'm not into it anymore. I won't do it. But on the other side of it was I never had to finish it because I never had somebody. Sometimes dad has to be like, okay, you fell, pick yourself up. Yeah, hurt, but keep walking. And I didn't really have that, so I thought I was overcompensating by going too far with it, with the sports stuff, and I apologize to my son for that. I look back, I was like, I didn't coach you properly. He would go to baseball games with me, but he wasn't really into the baseball, so that's kind of like, okay, he's not really a sports kid.

Raphael Harry [01:15:23]:

So do any of your kids support any team that's like a rival of your team, of your sports teams that you like?

Corey Gumbs [01:15:33]:

My youngest son, yeah, I beat him up for it, too. He's a Yankees fan. I'm a mets.

Raphael Harry [01:15:41]:

Yeah, Mets. Oh, yeah.

Corey Gumbs [01:15:43]:

You know. Yeah, he's a Golden State. I'm not a big basketball fan.

Raphael Harry [01:15:47]:

Football.

Corey Gumbs [01:15:48]:

He doesn't really have a team that I know of. He hasn't really taken to a team. He kind of seems like he goes with the front runners, right?

Raphael Harry [01:15:54]:

So he took this Steph Curry team so seriously that he ended up with Golden State.

Corey Gumbs [01:15:58]:

Well, you got to remember, too, he's what, he's 16. So for the past five, six years, when he's gotten into basketball, that's the team. That's the team. All right, that makes sense because he's licensed issues.

Raphael Harry [01:16:13]:

Everybody's like, oh, you look like Steph Curry.

Corey Gumbs [01:16:17]:

All right, whatever, man.

Raphael Harry [01:16:20]:

This is good, man. Thank you all for sharing your time with me. I got to start wrapping this up. Let me see, which question will I go with? How do you find joy in your parents as a dad? How do you find joy? What gives you moments of joy? What are the moments? Because I was thinking of asking about your favorite dad moment, but you guys have given me some of that already. So how do you find joy while being a dad or completing your dad duties? Whichever way you want to go with it.

Corey Gumbs [01:17:03]:

I think for me, it's the journey, seeing them go, I guess it's like the scientists in me or something. I just, like, watch and observe them. And I would sit there and put my kid oh, just so you know, I used to force all my kids I raised them all on SpongeBob. They all had to watch SpongeBob.

Raphael Harry [01:17:24]:

Watching his one day, I don't think I fell asleep.

Corey Gumbs [01:17:27]:

And I force them when I get all of them together, I force all of them to watch, like, the old eighty s and ninety s movies because I can't stand somebody. But I never saw that. And you're a grown adult, and you grew up in the was like, your parents robbed you.

Raphael Harry [01:17:39]:

They did rob me.

Corey Gumbs [01:17:40]:

They robbed you. Well, you're different. It wasn't in your country at the time, but here in America, you had no excuse not to see Et. And all those shows, right. But I think the journey of seeing them grow from like an infant to a toddler to a young, you know, to it, but I don't know what comes after Tyler but a child and then a teenager. And now seeing my son go into a I think that's the most part because you just see the evolution of them and you sit back and enjoy. I tell people all the time like, you guys enjoy it, man. Because when you start seeing their personalities form and it's just like, oh, okay, so you're that kind of kid. You're this kind of person. And then if you have multiple children, seeing how each one of them are completely different than each other, they're similar, but then they're completely different. And even though they may have grown up in the same environment or been around the same people, it's just interesting to see that part. And then the other joy for me is I'm glad that they're their own individuals. They're not trying to be like me. I think that's a big thing. There's things I want to impart on them, but I don't want them to be like me. That's me.

Raphael Harry [01:18:49]:

How do you find joy?

Nabeel Ebeid [01:18:52]:

It's everywhere. At this age when it's a lot less complicated. They have so much fun together. Nobody will ever love you like a four year old kid. It is so pure and so endless. I was hanging out with him before I came out here, and he'd been so excited. We went out and got shoes for my youngest because she was starting to walk and we were out the house and he was excited to come home and watch TV. And then I told him that I'd be leaving him for a little while, and I was like, you want me to set you up in front of the TV? He's like, no, I'll watch TV when you leave. And that's real. He gave up TV for me. It's been beautiful. I'm sure there's going to be a lot I'm going to have to let go of, but there's so much fun.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:20:06]:

I just like for me, the joy. You're right. It's everywhere. For me, it comes in the moments sometimes when we're not interacting, when we're just hanging out. That happens sometimes where suddenly I realized that we've both just been chilling in the same room doing our own thing.

Nabeel Ebeid [01:20:25]:

No, that's right. Just now, before when we were hanging out in his room and he didn't want to watch TV, it's not like he was doing anything with me or talking to me. He was like playing with his toys.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:20:37]:

They just didn't want that. Exactly. And he's just there, he's chilling and you're like, doing your own thing, and he's doing his own thing, and it's peaceful and it's nice. I think those are the moments of joy. The reason I was late today to come here is because by instinct, physically, I just drove to his school, and I was parked outside his school, waiting there when you called me. And I'm like, Wait, but I'm here. Where am I? Come here. But physically, I guess I'm becoming a dad. Everything I wake up, as you say, like, 530. I wake up mechanically. I'm going and then I'm, like, making his little lunchbox, getting him packed for school, just automatically. And I like it. I like doing his laundry. Sometimes I'm just listening to a podcast early in the morning, doing laundry. And that's nice. It's very nice. It's very peaceful. I actually like that he's sleeping. I go and peek, spy on him, just observe him, but then continue just going doing for him. I really like it.

Nabeel Ebeid [01:21:58]:

It's the persistence of these chores and daily acts. And I'm not religious. My father was. I grew up when I was young in a pretty devout Muslim household.

Corey Gumbs [01:22:20]:

But.

Nabeel Ebeid [01:22:20]:

A big part of Islam. It's the constant acts of devotion. Right? It's like they're praying five times a day. It's like reminder. Right? But those daily acts of devotion affirm. They really affirm, at least for me, my sense of fatherhood.

Raphael Harry [01:22:46]:

Right.

Nabeel Ebeid [01:22:47]:

Like, cooking for them, feeding them, that sort of thing. Yeah.

Corey Gumbs [01:22:52]:

That's why when my son would go, I'd be like, what do I do with myself? That whole routine just gets disrupted. It's like, okay, so what do I do now?

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:23:02]:

That's why I felt when he first started going to school yeah.

Corey Gumbs [01:23:05]:

It's like, what do I do now?

Raphael Harry [01:23:08]:

That's true.

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:23:09]:

And I came back home, and I'm, like, looking around, okay, what do I do?

Raphael Harry [01:23:16]:

I know that.

Corey Gumbs [01:23:17]:

But that also helped me realize you also have to take time for yourself, because, like you said, devotion. You give so much to the process of raising your children and to your family that sometimes when they're not like especially as they get older and they start doing their own thing, I think it's more important for you to find a hobby or find something for you so that you don't have that self, that gap. Because it is like he's 24. This was, like, 1450. I still remember sitting in the car and be like, what do I do now? And it took me weeks no, actually, it took me months to get used to that. And that's when I realized, okay, I got to start planning out my weekend. So as soon as he's gone, I'm like, yeah, free. Let's go meet up with my friends, or I'm going someplace.

Raphael Harry [01:24:13]:

All right, so I think that's a good place to bring it to an end. Yeah. Final question will be, what would you like to leave the audience with? Well, especially a message to the aspiring dads. Anyone struggling with fatherhood, anyone who's out there in the game dreaming of becoming an average cousin, who he always like, Man, I can't wait to become a dad. I can't wait to become like, Bro, I don't know why you're in a rush.

Corey Gumbs [01:24:48]:

He's just like, 25. Don't rush.

Raphael Harry [01:24:52]:

Yeah, calm down, man. Calm down. But he's got a good head on his shoulders. But it just feels funny since he was 20, what, 22? He always kept saying that. I can't wait to call me dad, man. I look at you, man, I'm like, I'm glad you look at me, but there's a lot of things you should aspire to in life. Feels weird to me. And you say, can't wait to become a dad. So, yeah, what you like to leave the audience with?

Ashwin Goutham Gopi [01:25:23]:

For me, it's like I think I've already said this on this podcast once before, but the day before he passed away, my father in law, I was talking to him and I was talking to him and on the phone, and I was telling him, I was like, hey, listen. My own father just had passed away a few months before that. I'm like, hey, here I am all alone with your daughter in New York City. She's pregnant. I'm going to be a dad, and I don't have a role model. It'll be nice to have a role model somewhere nearby. And I'm glad I have you. I told him, and he's like, you know what? This is so scary. He's like, oh, you never know how long you'll actually have someone like that. And role models are really overrated anyway. This was literally 12 hours before he passed away. And then he's like, role models are very overrated. The best thing that you can do is listen to your instincts when it comes to being a father. Even when I know your child is not born yet. But the very fact that you're thinking about all these things, even your cousin, your cousin is already a father because he's thinking about it. I respect your cousin in that I respect him. Yes, he's already a father. He already is. He just needs to listen to his instinct, and I'm sure he'll do well. And that's what my father in law told me. He just said, listen to your instinct. You'll figure it out. A lot of times we think about sources of knowledge and role models and what we have learned and stuff like that. But there is a lot to be learned by actually listening to ourselves, our own voice. We have all these voices in our head, dad's voice or like society's voice. So many voices. And so sometimes we just have to find our own voice and listen to what that is saying.

Raphael Harry [01:27:19]:

Mr. Curry.

Corey Gumbs [01:27:22]:

One, don't put pressure on yourself. Like you said, trust your instincts. Enjoy the ride. Because it's going to be a ride. Enjoy it. Just enjoy the moments that you have with your children. Me, personally, I think a lot of parents make the mistake of not even when they're young, communicating with their children. Your children understand and see more than you think they do. Case in point was on the phone talking to somebody. My son is over in the room playing. I said something, and he corrected me, and I was like, are you listening to my conversation? You know what I'm saying? Because he was so engrossed in his toys, I didn't think anything about him. He's not paying me anymore. So they're watching and listening, and they understand more than you think they do. They may not be able to communicate it well. So one of the things I've learned learned to do was when my son was, like, 17, we went out to dinner, and I sat down with him, and I asked him, what did I do wrong? And we had a conversation, and I apologized. I laid myself out there and was like, listen, I didn't know what I was doing. It's not an excuse. But I think being open and understanding your children and being open and communicating with them is going to be really important in growing your relationship with them. So don't put pressure on yourself. You're going to make mistakes. You're not going to be the perfect dad. There's no such thing. And just enjoy it and communicate with your kids. Create an environment where they feel comfortable and you can communicate with them. Don't be headstrong. If you make a mistake, admit you made the mistake. Learn from it. Fix it. Don't keep trying to force it.

Raphael Harry [01:29:10]:

Thank you, Bill.

Nabeel Ebeid [01:29:15]:

Yeah. To Ashwin's Point, you talk about listening to your gut, and I'd say, also listen to your kid. Right. They kind of come with an instruction manual. And again, I'm a parent of young kids. What do I know? But when they're really young, they tell you what they want. They're very loud about it. And I'm able to have some real conversations with my kid, and he tells me what he needs. And he's an introverted kid, and sometimes he acts out. And we've taught him when he needs his space, he says he needs lathe time, and when he needs lathe time, we all leave the room, and he has his lathe time. And he's got his meditation soundtrack that he listens to. Yeah. Which is just a wonderful thing. And we've equipped him. We've empowered him. You've got to give him the words of a calorie to figure out what he wants to what he's asking for. But ultimately, I really feel like already at this age, I can respect him enough to tell me what he needs and we can figure it out together. And I think every parent, aspiring parent, should look forward to the opportunity to have their kid tell them what they need.

Corey Gumbs [01:30:56]:

I agree.

Raphael Harry [01:30:58]:

Shook around there, and what I'll wrap up with is yeah, my nephew, my first nephew, he's technically my first son because I didn't understand what was happening there. I think. How old is he? The age gaps, like, bad with math, but let me see. 812.

Corey Gumbs [01:31:21]:

You were in the Navy?

Raphael Harry [01:31:23]:

Yeah. No, the Navy is far better than the Marines man. Don't bring that up an army. He's 14 years younger than I am and I was the male figure in his life growing up. So there's a huge attachment because his dad was never around. But I wasn't fair to him. I haven't been fair to him for some time. I've been doing some little things. I've been mad at him. I guess I wasn't even consciously aware that I was robbing off as being dismissive of one or two mistakes. That was in the past. I should have let go of it. But it felt like I was really proud of him to have corrected me, and reached out to me in a text message like, Uncle, it feels like you're not listening to me. And it's like I stepped up and you still don't acknowledge and all that. At first, I was trying to yell at him and then he was okay, but I listened to you yelling at me. But may I get the opportunity to speak now? I was like, you know what? Why am I talking to him like he's still twelve?

Corey Gumbs [01:32:35]:

That's hard, man.

Raphael Harry [01:32:37]:

I listened to him and I was like, you know what? I apologize. I have to. I got to own this. I own it. And I know this is not Uncle's Day, but this is Father's Day and I consider him like a son. So it's part of the journey of being a dad. You have to take that. I try to apologize to my daughter too. When you mess up, when I mess up, I admit that I messed up. It's not something that I grew up with. I didn't have any family members. All my siblings are older than me. None of them admitted that they were wrong. It's something that still brings causes clashes to this day. And it's one thing I told myself when I became a parent that I would not be doing to my child. That when I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And I will apologize. So just the fact that this happened a few days ago and I was able to apologize to my nephew and I was like, yeah, you stepped up. And I was really proud of you for stepping up. I was really, really proud of you. And I hope that you do this not just to me, that for everything in life you're able to step up. And for what's yours, you're able to step up. Because we don't understand how this impacts the young ones. When people keep pushing them down, pushing them down, they start staying in a shell and other people oppress them. So I was really happy for him. And the last thing I would say is self-care. Dads deserve self-care. Get your self-care. Treat yourself. If it's massaged, I'm not saying go do something negative that's on you. Self-care. If it's golf, I don't know how to play golf. I don't care about it. But whatever your self-care is movies like me. I watch all the Marvel. I watch everything. Disney plus Marvel. Marvel. That's mine. Part of my self-care. Or if it's expensive to travel, I deserve it, too. If you want to buy a ticket for me, reach out to me. But yeah. So thank you all for coming again. Do you have anything you like to plug in? Please feel free to do that. Anybody?

Corey Gumbs [01:34:38]:

No, I'm good. Happy Father's Day. To Father.

Nabeel Ebeid [01:34:41]:

Happy Father's Day.

Raphael Harry [01:34:43]:

Happy Father's Day. And then nobody trying to come to claim it this time. If you want to claim it, you know what to do to my match, though.

Corey Gumbs [01:34:50]:

Buy the birds and burn them. You can burn it. All right.

Raphael Harry [01:34:53]:

Five-star reviews. Keep the love coming in. Thank you for the privilege of your company. I'll see you in next week's episode. Thanks for listening to White Label American. If you enjoyed the show, please give a five-star review on your favorite podcast app. You can follow the show on all social media platforms. Visit the White Label American website for links, donations, episodes, feedback, guests, match, and newsletter. Don't forget to download the free White Label American app on the Google Play store and Apple. Coming soon. Thank you for the privilege of your company.